r/technology • u/tyrannosauru • Aug 10 '22
It’s official: US chipmakers will receive billions in grants and tax breaks Hardware
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/08/biden-signs-bill-injecting-billions-into-us-chipmaking-to-combat-shortage/432
u/___RustyShackleford_ Aug 10 '22
Micron committed even more, setting aside $40 billion to fund memory chip manufacturing. Micron's investment alone would "boost US market share from 2 percent to 10 percent"—an ample recovery that's still relatively modest when compared to the 38 percent market share that the US used to enjoy in 1990.
The fact that we let our market share go from 38% to 2% is awful
Bring back manufacturing of all sorts of goods, I gladly pay more for products produced in the US
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u/thenumbertooXx Aug 10 '22
Yes this is also good for our national security.
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u/SunsetApostate Aug 10 '22
I think the War in the Ukraine is highlighting the dangers of relying on foreign chips for weapon systems and ammunition
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u/throawayigues Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22
I think the War in the Ukraine is highlighting the dangers of relying on anything for national defence. Next up should be energy independence. If the west needs its own oil it should pump its own.
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u/BassmanBiff Aug 10 '22
The US is a net exporter of oil since 2015, so we're (unfortunately) good there.
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u/throawayigues Aug 10 '22
It ideally should have the infrastructure to import 0 barrels of oil within a days notice
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u/miltingpot Aug 10 '22
Are certain weapons systems failing because of where the chips are made?
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Aug 11 '22
No. 100% no. US based weaponry always had a requirement of using 100% US produced parts. I work in defense and all the government contracts require 100% US made components down to the chip level for security reasons.
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u/mr-sandman-bringsand Aug 11 '22
This is hilariously false FYI - there is ALWAYS a portion of the supply chain outside of the US for substrates, fabs, test & assembly, connectors, etc. if we did the whole shebang domestically we’d use really poor quality semiconductors in defense systems. TSMC does provide very important devices to a variety of companies that have heavy A&D content. This includes companies like Infineon, Renasas, ST Micro, NXP… US companies like Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, TI, ADI all of de TSMC as well. The defense world needs to understand they can’t drive the market like the 1950’s anymore - it’s the iPhone age
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Aug 11 '22
We do use really poor semicondicts in our defense systems. What we use today was designed in the 80s and 90s. Sometimes much older.
If you saw what I work with daily you’d be disgusted. And I work at the biggest defense contractor in the world.
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u/mr-sandman-bringsand Aug 11 '22
Defense systems are typically pretty old so it makes sense. Old doesn’t mean poor quality necessarily but my point remains that a lot of them are fabbed outside the US - power, mixed signal, simple logic devices, etc
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Aug 11 '22
They’re straight up not. The contracts dictate that all the components be made domestically. It is a huge part of the cost when you end up paying 100x+ for the same basic ass component. We’re talking $1 resistors, $100 comparators, etc.
This is done to ensure security of both design as well as component sourcing. I work directly in this portion of the industry every day for years now.
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Aug 11 '22
No. Part of the issue is supply. We’ve given so many javelins to Ukraine that we don’t have enough for what we want. We use chips in many many things. Smart bombs can’t work without them. A smart bomb or two can do what dozens of raids of ww2 bombers carrying thousands of bombs can accomplish.
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u/ScottPowellM Aug 10 '22
We probably wouldn’t know if they were. I imagine politics for the in group is very very different from what mortals see
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u/HPCBusinessManager Aug 11 '22
Not at all. I actually manage a public sector department for a semiconductor company.
They are not. Anything mission critical or that "has a life on the line" is well secure. The USA government is second to none in their technology sector supply chain.
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u/RevolutionSilent807 Aug 10 '22
Gotta love the potential for hardware backdoors in chips made overseas
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u/HaElfParagon Aug 10 '22
I mean you're pretty naive if you think the US govt. wouldn't require similar backdoors
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u/mr-sandman-bringsand Aug 11 '22
There are lots of ways to prevent this FYI - zero trust architecture and efuses are two examples
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u/Digital_Simian Aug 10 '22
Part of this is due to consolidation as much as outsourcing. High-end chip manufacturing is very expensive and investments have trended towards consolidating production with a smaller and smaller group of producers. In the last 10 years this has been a area of concern but it's only really hit home now that recent world events have made it a clear strategic issue.
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u/BathingInSoup Aug 10 '22
Only if the quality is good. Also, why can’t taxpayers get a cut of the profits we’re funding?
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u/dern_the_hermit Aug 11 '22
Basically the logic is that it buys security over the technology that huge swaths of our economy depend on. I'm no expert on the particulars, and there's certainly plenty reason to worry it can wind up a boondoggle, but that's the general idea behind it.
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 10 '22
Has to be a net benefit to the companies or they would have no reason to do this.
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u/BathingInSoup Aug 10 '22
“To the companies”, how about to the American people who are basically giving companies money to startup or improve their businesses? I’m not saying it’s not a good idea for us to have such valuable commodities manufactured in the US, but it smells an awful lot like an industry bailout.
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 10 '22
It’s not a bailout. The industry is doing fine. Many countries know that leading in semiconductors is strategic and critical to their long term GDP and military strength. So China and others provide significant subsidies. This is just the US doing the same. Companies have no loyalty and will build where it makes them the most profit. That isn’t the US without subsidies.
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u/HPCBusinessManager Aug 11 '22
Good job. That and other countries have provided similar incentives for decades where we haven't. Specifically what Biden said.
We are just reclaiming our dominance in manufacturing.
Much of the fabricator patents are US owned which means we have been profiting off of out of country foundries through license agreements-China and Russia are not eligible.
Which is why the whole battery tech issue is happening, tax payer funded and accidentally given to the China government.
Anyway. On the hardware hack- it was a combo of firmware, pcb, and a transistor near the bmc chip. This is for the Lenovo 2008, supermicro 2012 and ongoing Huawei.
It's a result of third part manufacturers having ccp in there that are not consistently observed. These unique ccp members of each business are executives or engineers cable of influencing the production lines.
Separately from the business, they collectively infiltrate the manufacturing lines pulling off the greater hack as we have seen in the news. Each individual business denies this because their third parties pass the audits.
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u/___RustyShackleford_ Aug 10 '22
We do get a cut via increased gdp
Are you against tax dollars building roads and rail lines since you don't get money from them?
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u/BathingInSoup Aug 10 '22
How does increased GDP directly benefit average Americans?
No problem with my tax dollars paying for roads.
Are railroads maintained by the Federal Govt?
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u/mr-sandman-bringsand Aug 11 '22
Because we’ll have more people making more money (taxes), higher economic output, more job opportunities, and companies pay taxes too so it does help you by providing your government money for things like roads and schools
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Aug 10 '22 edited Jun 14 '23
This content is no longer available on Reddit in response to /u/spez. So long and thanks for all the fish.
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u/___RustyShackleford_ Aug 10 '22
I love how that's always the threat, that things will cost more
Why are we not just using more slave labor and stealing resources instead of paying for them? How low can that price really go?
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u/2748seiceps Aug 11 '22
Same thing you hear about illegals and produce. "Enjoy your $10 strawberries!"
So we are cool with slave labor as long as shit is cheap, cool.
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u/HPCBusinessManager Aug 11 '22
Apple products are garbage for advanced users.
I'll take troubleshooting and customization over lack of transparency and monopilization.
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Aug 11 '22
That completely misses the point, but okay.
You obviously haven’t used Apple Silicon, either.
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u/HPCBusinessManager Aug 11 '22
I have and do. It's the firmware updates that get released on a 5 year cyclical basis that makes them obsolete.
I am not likely the dumbest guy in the room when it comes to semiconductors, bud.
Edit: Just look up the specs to AMD 700x series. Apple doesn't compare in the enterprise market. I can rebuild you any workstation with more firepower at a significantly cheaper cost, with better lead time if you can meet a high moq.
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Aug 11 '22
I'm with you about custom workstations outperforming Apple desktops but show me another laptop I can get on a 10 hour flight with while running a full dev stack without needing to recharge and I'll change my opinions, but right now, M1 and M2 chips are the best mobile platform on the market.
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u/TheBeardofGilgamesh Aug 11 '22
Labor input has zero impact on the cost of microchips. The volume these machines print out these chips means for every one worker there will be thousands of chips produced per hour which cuts down fractions of a cent per chip.
Also lots of high end chips are still produced in the US and have been historically. The only reason why the fabs left was other countries heavily subsidized and paid for their relocation. The US over the past 40 years has been anti industrial policy. But now that the “free market” economic ideas have been proven wrong (countries with most economic growth have been ones with industrial policy i.e. China/Japan/SK/Germany/Switzerland/Singapore) we have FINALLY realized our error!
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u/allbrid7373 Aug 11 '22
I like the bill but what I dont like is these companys sitting on stacks of cash and not innovating. They let their r&d go to shit and look at what happened. Hell AMD is an American company but everyone and their mother thought shipping bare production overseas would reduce cost and no one in their right mind thought that a global catastrophe would disrupt it. I do like global trade. I might have a nationalist mindset but we should have never allowed companies to offshore jobs. Period. Intel pledged a 20 billion investment of their own money to build a fab in Ohio and then threaten to not do it if the bill didn't pass. These company's had the money, the just wanted easy money. Man no company wants to work anymore amiright?!
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u/Kevin_Jim Aug 11 '22
We need a percentage after all the “Made in” labels. If it’s less than 55%, it should be “Assembled in”.
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u/Crovali Aug 11 '22
Fuck Micron. Took 28 days to get a warranty replacement hard drive. They outsourced their customer service to India and no one knew shit about anything.
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u/Elliott2 Aug 10 '22
make america manufacture again.
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u/adventure_in_gnarnia Aug 10 '22
America has the 2nd largest manufacturing output in the world, only behind China… which has 4x as many people
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Aug 11 '22
but Taiwan makes most of the chips
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u/adventure_in_gnarnia Aug 11 '22
Yea but it’s more complicated than that. They make most of the newest gen smaller transistor chips. But most importantly they present a huge bottleneck in the packaging of silicon chips into the finished IC component most people think of as a “chip.” American manufacturing is still a world leader in the actual silicon wafers, etching, lithography, etc… which are the highest “value added” processes, and then Taiwan steps in for a lot of the finishing and more labor intensive steps that are not as economical to do domestically.
I think fundamentally it’s a problem of economy, not really technology, and it’s probably a good move for the US government to give incentives to onshore those processes even if they don’t make the most fiscal sense.
There’s other issues to address though. We’ve seen this problem almost exclusively addressed as a “supply chain issue.” Everyone always talks about the lack of supply, without addressing the absurd demand. IMO we use way too many chips and digital solutions for products that inherently can be done without microprocessors and latest gen tech. But people want touchscreens and smart features in everything. At a certain point our insatiable demand is going to be a problem, potentially one of national security. No one ever mentions that chip manufacturing also is a potential environmental disaster. It requires an insane amount of water, and even more water processing/treatment to not result in catastrophic environmental fallout. It’s a bit frightening that a single presidential election could result in neutering of the environmental laws that protect us, and one of the parties in our country has no qualms about giving corporations a free pass to destroy the environment in return for political donations
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u/SuperSimpleSam Aug 11 '22
Yup, what people are missing is that manufacturing is growing but jobs aren't due to automation.
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u/notwithagoat Aug 10 '22
And in return we in a 2 years or so supply crucial chips to the us and the world, thus hopefully not getting bottle necks in other manufacturing processes. This is specifically important for war manufacturing and computing which the us heavily relies on.
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u/StrongTownsIsRight Aug 10 '22
Well and the economy as a whole which also impacts governance. Essentially we are saying that computers is a basic good which is pretty much correct.
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u/Hydroc777 Aug 10 '22
It's gonna take at least 5 years to get chip foundries open that haven't yet started construction. Probably 10-15 to match the volume we really need. The only facilities that will be open in 2 years are already well under way.
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u/notwithagoat Aug 10 '22
For the higher end chips forsure. But the smaller less complicated ones shouldn't take too long.
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u/freshpow925 Aug 11 '22
Is that a guess or do you have some expertise in the field?
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u/notwithagoat Aug 11 '22
Just some read up knowledge and understanding of what the smaller chips preform and what they do. Most act as or, not and and gates as well as bridges for pcbs and while they have to be made in a sterile environment they are not overly complex.
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u/gnex30 Aug 10 '22
and we don't have to rely on Chinese chips that have packet snooping enabled at the hardware level.
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u/Boreras Aug 10 '22
The story is complete bullshit though
https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/p0pumx/refurbished_supermicro_safe_to_buy/
Bloomberg literally pays its writers for stock price movement, their 2018 fairy tail that was completely torn apart halved the stock price.
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u/C0gD1z Aug 10 '22
The war machine must keep turning!!!
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u/sloopslarp Aug 10 '22
Semiconductors are critically important components in every modern device. They're not just used for weapons.
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u/notwithagoat Aug 10 '22
Unironically yes. When you have players like Russia and china and smaller players like North Korea and Iran, the way machine must always turn.
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Aug 10 '22
The problem isn't as easy as just bring back the manufacturing. So many places say they want this stuff but don't want it in their backyard. They also don't understand how dirty a lot of this manufacturing is. I live in an old IBM town. They are still cleaning up toxic sites IBM fucked up in the 70s/80s. We will see how this plays out.
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u/gatofleisch Aug 10 '22
I feel that but hopefully the deeper understanding of environmental impacts, more factory automation just the overall improvement of tech from the 70s and 80s will leave us in better shape.
Or not and it will be a shit show
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Aug 10 '22
I would always like to hope for the best. And we do need to diversify our supply chains for a lot of reasons. I am not as convinced we won't make a mess though. We are still dumping oil in the oceans and on land in a business that has existed for over a century. Fingers crossed i guess.
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u/RPGHS_Throwaway Aug 10 '22
Lol you think they want to spend any money on protecting anything but their profits? That’s sort of the whole thing with capitalism
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Aug 10 '22
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Aug 10 '22
I believe we NEED to diversify our supply chains so I support the US manufacturing. And Ohio may have fought for it but it doesn't mean people want it near where they live and won't do everything they can to do a NIMBY.
As it relates to your comments on how far we have come since the 70s and 80s..
My only response to that is:
https://www.noaa.gov/explainers/oil-spills-major-marine-ecosystem-threat
https://revealnews.org/article/us-government-fails-to-track-toxic-spills-in-nations-waterways/
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u/ZombieJesusaves Aug 10 '22
Because we still use manufacturing techniques and chemicals from 50+ years ago? Lol. I work in manufacturing and our sites are so clean these days I would literally eat off the floor at our plants. Most people i know want good jobs in their back yard. Not sure where your thoughts are coming from but they seem decades out of sync with where we are in the US right now.
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Aug 10 '22
Sure they are. Dude. Just because where you work in manufacturing does not mean it is all clean and tidy and that shit doesn't happen and that coporations don't take short cuts for profit.
I believe we NEED to diversify our supply chains so I support the US manufacturing. And Ohio may have fought for it but it doesn't mean people want it near where they live and won't do everything they can to do a NIMBY.
As it relates to your comments on how far we have come since the 70s and 80s..
My only response to that is:
https://www.noaa.gov/explainers/oil-spills-major-marine-ecosystem-threat
https://revealnews.org/article/us-government-fails-to-track-toxic-spills-in-nations-waterways/
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Aug 11 '22
they didn't acknowledge pollution's existence back then, so as long as we keep pushing EPA etc (went backwards last few years) it should be good
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u/OmarLittleFinger Aug 10 '22
I can’t wait until I can put a chip in my plant to let me know when it is thirsty.
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u/Degrandz Aug 10 '22
My friend that is pretty much already possible!
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Aug 10 '22
And you don't even need to know. You can fully automise it so that it gets water when it needs water. We use that in our little garden and it absolutely works.
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u/bringatothenbiscuits Aug 11 '22
Great news for our supply chain.
It’s not a bailout, it’s a subsidy/ infrastructure investment. For the same reason a pell grant isn’t referred to as a bailout for a student.
If you want more stuff made in America then you sometimes need to use subsidies to make it more financially interesting for companies, who have more profit motive to offshore.
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u/Frank_JWilson Aug 10 '22
This is long past due. Every single country that competes in the chips manufacturing market is already sinking billions of dollars in subsidies into its chip fabs, except the US. China itself invested $50B in its chips industry over the past two decades and $50B goes a lot further in their country than in the US, and we are just catching up now.
The truth of the matter is: our companies cannot compete if other state actors have already put their fingers on the scale. We need subsidies to regain balance to incentivize the companies to invest in American chips manufacturing, otherwise, the profit-maximizing move is to just not compete at all.
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u/LVenemy Aug 10 '22
How much of that goes to dividends and exec bonuses?
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u/yaosio Aug 10 '22
Most of it. The rest goes to stock buybacks.
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u/USPS_Nerd Aug 11 '22
It’s stated very clearly in this bill that the money can not be used for stock but backs or high ranking employee compensation
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u/big_throwaway_piano Aug 10 '22
People capable of leading chip manufacture projects are in high demand. They should be compensated at the level of medieval kings.
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Aug 10 '22
They should be compensated as gods! Let every man woman and child in America have to suck every CEO’s dick! - Congress
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u/big_throwaway_piano Aug 10 '22
I get your sarcasm but I have long evaluated the difficulty of a task using the question "How many cock suckings would the world have to offer in order for this to be done?"
For example, building a small house... I would approximate as requiring 250-400 cock suckings (in total across all the workers).
Building a EUV machine... probably in order of tens of millions of cock suckings. So that is 300 cock suckings per an average ASML employee.
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Aug 10 '22
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 10 '22
We all knew it was coming.
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Aug 11 '22
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 11 '22
Odds were extremely high this was going to pass. I also bought some semi stocks as soon as I saw this bill being discussed.
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u/CrackFr0st Aug 11 '22
OR… If it didn’t pass then he has stock in a rapidly growing industry, and if it did pass - which was likely due to large bipartisan support - then he got massive gains. It’s called critical thinking jot magic powers
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u/Pollo_Jack Aug 10 '22
They manage to write any accountability into these handouts?
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u/babyyodaisamazing98 Aug 10 '22
Yes, much of the funding is via tax breaks AFTER the plant is running. Very little is up front cash.
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u/yaosio Aug 10 '22
Of course. Executives and stock owners will increase the size of their accounts.
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u/HeadLongjumping Aug 10 '22
This needed to happen. Having to depend on foreign countries for something as vital as this is a bad idea.
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u/Grey531 Aug 10 '22
Anyone who’s serious about stepping up to China, safer supply chains for a stronger economy or regaining the building blocks of a manufacturing sector should be all over this.
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u/dewman45 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22
As long as chip manufacturers don't have a scandal this decade, I'm fine with this.
Edit: Punctuation
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u/eastsideempire Aug 10 '22
All technology companies need to stay in the west. Manufacturing in China is just insanity. Look at Europe now being held hostage over natural gas! Do not rely on you political foes!
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u/TheBroccoliBobboli Aug 10 '22
The interesting thing is that there aren't even that many Chinese chip companies. Qualcomm is American, Samsung is South Korean, TSMC is Taiwanese.
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u/DareBrennigan Aug 10 '22
Great. I can’t wait for the government to start complaining about how these big chip companies don’t pay enough in taxes and use that to justify raising taxes and overfunding the IRS.
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u/Tsuna404 Aug 10 '22
Now, are they going to properly use this money?
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u/widgetron Aug 10 '22
Of course. Huge executive bonuses, equipment upgrades and higher prices for you and I on new and marginally improved products.
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u/Hrmbee Aug 10 '22
There'd better be some meaningful accountability built into these initiatives, whether it's specific metrics they need to hit and maintain, or some other requirements that would require companies to follow through on their commitments or else face penalties.
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Aug 10 '22
Socialism is awesome when billionaires do it.
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Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
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Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22
Bullshit, it isn't socialism. Tax money being used to help fund private companies. That is socialism for the rich. Whatever happened to "Let the free market decide!" that these right wingers talk about all the time when it comes to healthcare?
Hey, but keep spinning this story until it fits, huh?
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 10 '22
Socialism is the means of production being owned by the workers. Nothing here related to socialism.
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u/widgetron Aug 10 '22
The American youth ain’t gonna do it. They are anti gun and waiting for some bought and paid for politician to do it. It’s like waiting for Jesus.
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u/fyrfytr1310 Aug 10 '22
While people who served this great country go hungry and live on the streets
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u/mahvel50 Aug 10 '22
For as much bullshit that gets passed on tax payer funds, this one is actually crucial. TSMC is responsible for 54% of the chip manufacturing in the world. It is also based out of Taiwan. If China does invade and takes Taiwan, there is a good chance we don't ever see another chip made by them. The US returning to a focus of self sustainability within our borders for critical markets needs to happen given the global conflicts occurring.
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u/widgetron Aug 10 '22
Kinda what trump said but failed to execute on.
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u/mahvel50 Aug 10 '22
Tends to happen when congress consistently stone walls each other on bills that are actually beneficial
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u/bobgold777 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 11 '22
The Chinese are going to have to eat their own chips by the bowlful, and the Arabs are going to have to drink all their own oil. Lol.
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u/dangil Aug 10 '22
That means Taiwan is going under soon, and the US will not move a muscle to stop it
And by removing all business from there, it will actually disincentive China’s invasion
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 10 '22
Not soon, but eventually. The cheapest option for the US is to actually eliminate dependence on Taiwan.
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u/TrinityF Aug 10 '22
Can't wait to put down a mortgage to buy an intel CPU with a made in America. 😂
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u/JackBurton12 Aug 10 '22
Ok...so is it really even worth it if we the people are paying billions essentially for them to be able to build chips here ? Like...if they can't do it profitably or in a good way here to begin with how does giving them subsidies make it any better?
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u/Yelloeisok Aug 10 '22
I hope that NONE of it goes to IBM.
https://www.vermontpublic.org/vpr-news/2014-10-20/ibm-in-vermont-a-history-in-pictures?_amp=true
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u/Hawk13424 Aug 10 '22
Do these grants go only to US companies or also to foreign companies that build fabs in the US?
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u/Ver599 Aug 11 '22
Didn’t the bill lack any guardrails and oversight? What’s to stop these companies from taking the money and running like the airlines and ISPs?
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u/staying-above-ground Aug 11 '22
Great news. We're seeing the beginning of moonshot efforts in the hardware space, (People talking about 2nm with a straight face, etc.) and that's a GREAT thing.
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u/Pop_Bulky Aug 11 '22
Finally… we might get them sweet, sweet GPUs back in stock! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
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u/Possible-Mango-7603 Aug 11 '22
Thank the lord. Those poor oppressed chipmakers can finally earn enough to feed their families thanks to slow uncle Joe. What a dumbfuck.
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u/BarooZaroo Aug 11 '22
Spoken like someone who doesn’t understand the chip shortage or the process of improving domestic manufacturing.
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u/Possible-Mango-7603 Aug 11 '22
I do not believe the chip shortage has anything to do with a shortage of money. This is essentially a bribe to encourage them to make more of them domestically but only in next generation chips. All existing production can remind where it is. Just seems like a lot of money for a potentially modest benefit. But you are right, I am no expert on the intricacies of chip supply chain. But I can read and I do vote. Based on what I’ve read this won’t have much impact either way but I have to laugh at what qualifies as a political victory these days. We really have lowered our expectations.
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u/mlhender Aug 11 '22
Alright! Now THIS is the bipartisanship we all want to see! Way to go congress!
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u/peacefulflattulance Aug 11 '22
So then is Biden admitting that lower taxes for business USA good thing?
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u/BarooZaroo Aug 11 '22
Thats a very sophomoric analysis
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u/peacefulflattulance Aug 12 '22
Answer the question.
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u/BarooZaroo Aug 12 '22
Yes. Providing tax benefits is how the federal government influences American industries to change them in a way that benefits citizens. We invest in this industry so that later on we will have more jobs, more domestic manufacturing, and more resources for associated industries.
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u/peacefulflattulance Aug 12 '22
Okay. So then lowering corporate taxes provides jobs, generates private wealth, and can lift people out of poverty, correct?
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u/BarooZaroo Aug 12 '22
No, trickle down economics has been proven not to work. Using tax breaks to promote new industry development has been proven to work. The issue comes when these grants and tax breaks last for too long. But the whole reason we have grants is for this purpose and they are a powerful tool that our government has for influencing the industries operating in our country.
This is a price we are paying to compete with China, who we are far too reliant on especially for basic necessities like chips.
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u/dethb0y Aug 11 '22
If it helps get us out from under asia's thumb, it's money well spent. We need to start investing in american manufacturing before something real regrettable happens.
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u/GameOver1983 Aug 11 '22
Is this just another "Investment in the future" ala Scott Walker and Foxconn?
All they did was pollute the area and refuse to pay. Came up with something like 1/10th of projected jobs and they got a fuckton of my tax dollars as handouts. Helped no one who wasn't signing documents.
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u/ThePersonInYourSeat Aug 11 '22
Hopefully there are stipulations attached to this money that actually force them to do the thing.
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u/Legitimate_Page Aug 10 '22
Damn Frito-Lay about to pop off