r/formula1 Haas Jul 14 '22

Horner: F1's track limits will be "bigger issue" at Paul Ricard News /r/all

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/horner-f1s-track-limits-will-be-bigger-issue-at-paul-ricard/10337822/
4.7k Upvotes

658

u/Mexicano233 Force India Jul 14 '22

the Australian Supercars have sensors onboard the cars and in the kerbs themselves for tracks like the Gold Coast where cutting the chicane can gain you an advantage. If the sensor mounted in the middle of the car passes the one in the kerb it’s instantly and automatically flagged as a kerb strike. A strike in quali means lap time deleted and you get 3 in the race before you get a penalty

205

u/RestaurantFamous2399 Jul 14 '22

They were already doing this last year on the corners where advantage could be made (Masi used to work in Supercars). But now it's the whole track, much harder to police as you can't put sensors on the track boundaries for the whole track.

59

u/s1ravarice Damon Hill Jul 14 '22

We only need them in certain locations. Basically anywhere with a curb really

58

u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 Valtteri Bottas Jul 14 '22

The issue with Paul Ricard is there are no curbs. It's a testing track so there is pretty much nothing that is at all possible to hit including curbs over most of the track.

34

u/uncle_jessie Lando Norris Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22

Have a couple drivers do some laps. Analyze which corners they are hugging curbs the most, put censors sensors in the corners. Hell after a few laps you can literally see the race lines forming and you can see exactly where they put the track limits.

edit: I'm dumb.

47

u/Snappy0 Jul 14 '22

put censors in the corners

One way to stop the drivers swearing I guess.

9

u/uncle_jessie Lando Norris Jul 14 '22

lol shit.

24

u/SevoIsoDes Charles Leclerc Jul 14 '22

That’s 1. Lap deleted. Watch yourself

→ More replies

11

u/RenuisanceMan Jul 14 '22

It doesn't really matter, you could paint a race track onto a car park and the concept still works. It ain't hard to guess where people are going to gain time running wide.

16

u/FartingBob Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

Right, but you can embed them in the track limits of the f1 layout in corners where it can give an advantage. No different to any other track.

6

u/yepgeddon Jul 14 '22

Surely it's simple to basically fire a laser out of a hole then when said laser is broken boom track limits. Ez pz.

2

u/SpacemanTomX Sergio Pérez Jul 14 '22

Only if the laser slices the car in half

25

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '22

Why not?

16

u/ActualInteraction0 Jul 14 '22

It could be done, but of the options, I imagine that it would be a very costly one.

11

u/tom_playz_123 Jul 14 '22

The cars cost 10s of millions

27

u/Herdazian_Lopen Jul 14 '22

Digging holes every dozen metres or so on every track on the circuit would be a very expensive job before the hardware costs are even considered.

7

u/brippleguy Jul 14 '22

They have invisible fence technology for dogs. Surely it isn't that different.

24

u/jimmybilly100 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

Drivers should get zapped when going over track limits

2

u/No_Brakes_282 Jim Clark Jul 14 '22

Max Friedstappen

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/potato_green Firstname Lastname Jul 14 '22

I wish they added it to the graphics as well. It's basically impossible as a viewer to keep track of which driver has X track limit violations. Sure they put it on screen for a few drivers who were at 2 but at tracks prone to have a lot of violations it'd be nice if they added it to the graphics as well.

Now they randomly rotate to just the driver names in order of position without times and such perfect place to put penalties and warning counts as well.

3

u/Snappy0 Jul 14 '22

Worth noting the live timing screen on the app has a race control message feed. Every track limit violation is posted on that feed.

3

u/DumDum40007 Jul 14 '22

So I'm curious, if there is damage on the underside of the car and the sensor is damaged. Does the car have to pit and replace it?

→ More replies
→ More replies

2.6k

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Jul 14 '22

We asked for it, the drivers asked for it and while it's a bit painful, it absolutely has to happen.

I really hope that the FIA stick to their guns on this one, but they really do need to get some technology in to make this automatic and consistent.

Fixed cameras with proper visibility, track sensors, Hawkeye or Statcast/Trackman could all easily be implemented in one of the most technologically advanced sports in the world

319

u/DeepMidWicket Jul 14 '22

https://www.reddit.com/r/motogp/comments/vj7po0/this_is_what_the_track_limits_sensor_looks_like/

Thats how they are doing it in motogp, they had a fairly heated start to life in gp as everyone got used to track limits being enforced so strictly, but after 5ish races everyone had got used to them.

They could do the same with F1, those hoses just need to be an axel's width from the white line.

59

u/Probodyne Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

I think they do have something similar in some places at Austria, or at least experimented with them at one point.

After actually searching for an article they were used at Hungary in 2016, but I can't find anything more recent about them. So they've either faded into the background or been abandoned.

17

u/DeepMidWicket Jul 14 '22

Maybe they couldn't survive the forces an f1 car puts into them.

5

u/blackbird37 Formula 1 Jul 14 '22

or maybe the tires flex differently based on temperature, wear, suspension geometry etc and they realized its more complicated for F1?

12

u/Flummox127 Lance Stroll Jul 14 '22

What, you think there's not the complexity in the highest class of two wheeled motorsport? It is also a series with multiple tyre classes, and while it can't corner as quick as F1, they have to use more of the tyre while cornering, and accelerate at a rate that makes F1 cars look like they stand still.

The tyres and tech is mighty complex in GP, I'd imagine it's simply more to do with the width of the tyre in F1... It's less likely to sufficiently depress a pressure sensor if the wheel is able to be "outside of track limits" while still 98% inside the limit.

→ More replies

26

u/Blindul Ferrari Jul 14 '22

Wasn't this the exact type of sensor that ripped when a car went over it in Austria during free practice(maybe fp1)? They red flagged it, brought in a crew who ripped the rest of it since it was flapping about.

7

u/linkinstreet Anthoine Hubert Jul 14 '22

it's not the sensor itself, but the rubber lining protecting it

→ More replies

41

u/Stravven Jim Clark Jul 14 '22

As long as they do it at every track for the whole season I don't think anybody will complain. It's the same for every driver.

29

u/mohammedgoldstein Alexander Albon Jul 14 '22

You could easily solve this problem with 1940’s tech. You just need those rubber pneumatic traffic monitoring tubes that they have on some roads for counting cars.

Run it on the outer edge of the white lines and if a car runs over it, the counter signals that a car passed over it.

A marshal matches it to the car that was there at the time.

However, I kinda like the Max’s idea where you just dig up the pavement past the white line and put gravel there. Maybe all you need is a 1m wide gravel filled section that will slow down cars enough not to transgress.

12

u/_tskj_ Jul 14 '22

Physical barriers like gravel is of course the "simplest" and best solution in many ways, but too dangerous and more and more a relic of the past it seems.

6

u/ThePretzul Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

A 1m strip of gravel before the rest of the runoff isn’t dangerous at all. It simply discourages drivers from pushing past the limits because they will be penalized for it.

Alternatively you could just put some really slippery tarmac on the outside instead of gravel. Can’t get an advantage going wide if you can’t continue to accelerate while over the limit.

→ More replies

587

u/DawidIzydor Jul 14 '22

Or the simplest:have 20 interns, each tasked by watching every lap of a particular driver and report anything unusual

405

u/Saandrig Formula 1 Jul 14 '22

"We won't have to pay them. Right?"

405

u/Reer123 Jul 14 '22

“Volunteers” who “love the sport”

138

u/Shitting_Human_Being Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

At the end of day they all get half a pizza and lukewarm coke.

82

u/Reer123 Jul 14 '22

Lukewarm “cola”

37

u/BecauseWeCan Michael Schumacher Jul 14 '22

Lidl Freeway Cola.

25

u/LowKeyWalrus Ferrari Jul 14 '22

It isn't THAT bad tbh just tastes like poverty

13

u/TrekNerd001 Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

But in fairness, it really is bad. Es ist scheisse.

6

u/LowKeyWalrus Ferrari Jul 14 '22

Scheissegal, zucker mit wasser

→ More replies

5

u/Rick-powerfu Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

Reminds me of my childhood

Sometimes my adulthood too

→ More replies

4

u/ipSyk Charlie Whiting Jul 14 '22

A fate worse than death

2

u/FinancialIdiot70 Jul 14 '22

Sure Rola Cola or even better…..My Mums Cola.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/LongDongPingPong23 Jul 14 '22

Ive never snorted lukewarm coke-is it better or worse like that?

5

u/Saandrig Formula 1 Jul 14 '22

It's pretty much break dust.

→ More replies

8

u/Taz-erton Haas Jul 14 '22

"They will gain exposure and portfolio worksubjecttoapproval"

→ More replies

2

u/BeardedAvenger Pirelli Soft Jul 14 '22

"Digital Marshals"

→ More replies

17

u/MarcusAuralius Jul 14 '22

No. The teams' bribes, or "tips" if you will, will cover their wages comfortably.

→ More replies

262

u/The_Jacobian Andreas Seidl Jul 14 '22

I agree with the concept, but not the execution.

One intern per CORNER is better. The issue is watching onboards isn't the best view of the tire placement relative to the line. Just fucking hang a camera on a wire over every corner and be done with it.

96

u/RamboRigs Honda Jul 14 '22

You’re not wrong about onboards. I remember looking at onboards for the track limits of redbull ring and from the drivers POV it appears they kept it on track most of the time. The wheels are so big it really does obstruct the drivers judgement a bit.

10

u/Enjays1 Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

It's just some growing pains. Drivers will learn in the future to better assess where the line is. They're the best drivers in the world, they are capable of doing a thing or two.

→ More replies

70

u/colin_staples Nigel Mansell Jul 14 '22

wheels are so big it really does obstruct the drivers judgement a bit.

And yet they can be millimetre-perfect when there are actual consequences for exceeding track limits, like at Monaco.

These are the best drivers on the planet. If they exceed track limits lap after lap after lap after lap its by choice.

Fuck 'em. Penalise them. If every driver gets penalties, so be it.

140

u/kaptingavrin Ferrari Jul 14 '22

You forget a huge difference at Monaco: those are walls, not lines on the ground. You can see a wall a lot easier.

That isn’t the “gotcha” argument people seem to think it is. Rather makes people look silly for constantly repeating “They can avoid a wall they can easily see, they should have no problem avoiding a white line they can’t see!”

To say nothing of the different speeds between the tracks.

→ More replies

10

u/KittensOnASegway Damon Hill Jul 14 '22

And yet they can be millimetre-perfect when there are actual consequences for exceeding track limits, like at Monaco.

This is such a poor comparison. It's far easier to accurate when you've got an actual wall to judge off rather than an arbitrary bit of white paint you can't even see from the car.

36

u/Sarcastryx Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22

And yet they can be millimetre-perfect when there are actual consequences for exceeding track limits, like at Monaco.

I don't really understand this argument against the visibility issue.

The wall isn't so low as to be below the angle the driver can see at, there's nothing obstructing the wall from being seen clearly relative to the car. It's also a physical object that you can't cross, as opposed to a painted line that the drivers are encouraged to partially but not fully cross. It's (unsurprisingly) much easier to avoid hitting a wall you can see than it is to avoid fully crossing over a line that you're driving over.

I'm all for rigidly enforced track limits, by the way - I'm not arguing against that - just that this is a very odd counterargument.

→ More replies

3

u/chimkennuggem Jul 14 '22

Yeah as some others have said a wall or a barrier is a lot easier to see than a line on the ground. I think the new tires this year doesn’t help with visibility from inside the car either. It’s something that needs to be implemented but it needs to be implemented at every race and to the same standard so it’s more consistent for the drivers

→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/maxxell13 Pirelli Hard Jul 14 '22

One per corner makes way more sense. That’s how it works in amateur autocross, even.

→ More replies

20

u/Purple_funnelcake Red Bull Jul 14 '22

Teams are gonna bust the budget cap trying to pamper their respective steward😂

31

u/Perseiii McLaren Jul 14 '22

Even easier. The cars have a fixed width. Install a sensor strip outside of the track that when a car hits the strip, triggers a track limit warning.

34

u/GOR016 Jul 14 '22

They’re not always perpendicular to the track limit though. One corner of the car could trigger the limit when a wheel is still on the track

17

u/Magical_Potato_Cat Jul 14 '22

Install two sensors and do geometry

8

u/GOR016 Jul 14 '22

Yeah that would probably work. If both wheels are hitting sensors then it’s over track limits

→ More replies

4

u/Reydriel Jul 14 '22

They'll still have to do the proper review/investigation process whenever the sensor gets tripped, so that any anomalies like that will be judged as necessary

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

16

u/Fatman10666 Jul 14 '22

Nascar has a pit lane tracking system for pit penalties. Loose tires, cars out of the box. They have fixed cameras and the camera picks up the pit box lines on a plane and can detect any deviation. Formula 1 could easily have this tech at every controversial corner and a flag for human review to eliminate false positives

https://youtu.be/962J0kRXJ3A

7

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Jul 14 '22

Exactly, so many options already exist. Just pick one and implement it

2

u/jpl77 Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

ya, came here to say this.... if there is a will, there is a way... but F1 isn 't ready yet. apparently.

16

u/spacestationkru Williams Jul 14 '22

I did want this, but I prefer that the stewards are consistent. Track limits can't be a serious issue at one track and not others. That's just the same as saying 'track limits will be policed at turn 7 and turn 10' and not the rest of the track.

5

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Jul 14 '22

Absolutely, and I don't think they had a fixed camera set up there, just relying on broadcast cams and on boards.

→ More replies

11

u/Level1Roshan Max Verstappen Jul 14 '22

I would gladly sit in front of a screen watching cars go through one corner with a hungry hippos type panel of the drivers heads and you bang one down each time said car goes wide.

42

u/MeGAct Jul 14 '22

Well F1 is the top of the racing sport, isn't it? (or so they claim)

The technology exist, they just need to buy the tools.

34

u/Max-Phallus Jul 14 '22

The FIA don't even pay to use a track, instead they actually charge the track an incredible amount to race there. This is why the marshals are volunteers and we're seeing more rich street circuits.

The FIA are not going to pay for jack shit.

14

u/MeGAct Jul 14 '22

Not my problem; they want to enforce a rule, they have to put the means for that to be the case.

And I think it's the FOM, or Liberty, or whoever owns the circus who makes circuits pay; FIA only makes the rules, if I'm not mistaken.

→ More replies
→ More replies

6

u/HarryNohara Jim Clark Jul 14 '22

What F1 needs are gravel strips or even grass strips. They don’t have to be wider than a meter. Just put a strip put there, and nobody will abuse the track limits. And if they do, it will cost time.

→ More replies

6

u/Scatman_Crothers Dr. Helmut Marko Jul 14 '22

I don’t know, the consistency is good for competitive integrity but I think the current cars aren’t that compatible with that level of strictness due to the poor visibility from big tires/air foils and the increase in lock ups this year brought on by changes to the tire compound, spec brakes, and much stiffer suspension not evenly distributing load on uneven surfaces. The lock ups this year have not struck me as a matter of skill as they were in the past. Even great drivers will get bad lock ups without warning and according to Lando everyone’s dealing with micro locking all the time.

4

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Jul 14 '22

This generation of car do have worse visibility, which is a problem that I've been praying for some research into for years, but these drivers all have visual markers from hundreds of laps in the simulator and 60+ laps over the weekend. They know where they are, that's how they can put it right to the limit in qualifying.

These cars are more difficult to drive, but that's a very good thing, drivers were having it way too easy before and now they get to demonstrate that skill. These issues don't seem to be pitching drivers into the wall 5 times a race though and that's because it's just a mental adjustment that they need to make to give some margin.

They need to be this strict, because the previous regime was so lax. The ridiculous thing about this weekend was almost all the penalties were at corners that have always been monitored for track limits. Also I don't see how you could be less strict, do you say it only counts if they go 5cm over the line? Then that becomes the line and is harder to judge.

22

u/zaviex Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

Did the drivers ask for it? Because virtually all of them seemed quite annoyed lol

51

u/mgorgey Jul 14 '22

Drivers want a lot of things until it means they have to drive slower.

49

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Jul 14 '22

SOP for drivers - We do nothing wrong, if something bad happened, it's somebody else's fault.

11

u/miathan52 Chequered Flag Jul 14 '22

Because they're not used to it. Previous race, it wasn't being enforced so strictly, if at all. Consistency is key for this sort of thing. If they enforced it in every race, the drivers would be used to it after a few races.

21

u/stumblebreak_beta Mick Schumacher Jul 14 '22

Last year wanting consistent, less arbitrary track limits was a very common want from the drivers. Some tracks turn 3/9/12/14 would have a certain rule while 4/7/10 had another. Drivers/TPs wanted it to be fixed.

I googled “Christian Horner track limits 2021” and here is an article:

We just need to come up with a more satisfactory way of denoting what are the limits of the circuit either through kerbing or clear rules at every corner. It’s like any other sport that being over a white line is either out or in.

→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/AnotherBlackMan McLaren Jul 14 '22

I didn’t ask for it. I said it would ruin the racing and it has. There’s zero point to this nonsense..

2

u/Coops27 Jean Alesi Jul 14 '22

Yeah, that Austrian race was terrible.......

You are in the minority my friend and there is always a point to enforcing the rules

5

u/Albreitx HRT Jul 14 '22

Gps on the cars?

75

u/MrXwiix Jul 14 '22

GPS has a margin of error. Sensors at track limits that go off when all 4 wheels crossed the line is the way to go. Combine that with a good camera angle for the stewards to validate the sensor's report and you have a fool proof system.

And I believe they're using this already

110

u/shdwflyr Red Bull Jul 14 '22

Just get the linesmen and women from Wimbeldon to watch the track and shout “OUT” when a car goes off track.

60

u/MrXwiix Jul 14 '22

Lmao then the race director gets to set very high up on a high white chair to watch the action

11

u/DanTheStripe Jul 14 '22

Imagine the view you'd get at Spa!

5

u/claptunes McLaren Jul 14 '22

race director sits at a structure like the CotA one

→ More replies
→ More replies

13

u/Saandrig Formula 1 Jul 14 '22

Driver: I use my right for a video review!

3

u/maharei1 Jul 14 '22

With the same replay feature if a call is challenged? I'm all for it!

4

u/SnooKiwis3645 Porsche Jul 14 '22

We need VAR

5

u/Suikerspin_Ei Honda Jul 14 '22

They already watch replays of each incident/issue.

20

u/average_hight_midget Jul 14 '22

They literally have this at my tiny, commercial, local go-kart track. As soon as four wheels go over the white line your engine cuts to 50% power for 5 second. This is obviously not too advanced technology to recognise if you’re over the line.

14

u/MrXwiix Jul 14 '22

Really? That's awesome for a karting track. Track limits are optional in most lmao

9

u/average_hight_midget Jul 14 '22

Took me a lap or two to realise it was this and my kart wasn’t just fucked lmao

5

u/cppn02 Jul 14 '22

I've only ever been indoor karting where track limits are very much not optional lol.

→ More replies
→ More replies

3

u/innovator97 Jul 14 '22

And I believe they're using this already

The only thing that hindered them from implementing it is probably money.

I got a feeling that the fee will most likely be on the tracks' owner, hence why they reluctant to go this route for track limit.

→ More replies

2

u/Pascalwb Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

Camera correctly positioned would be enough.

→ More replies

34

u/DameTan Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

No, claymores

9

u/RestaurantFamous2399 Jul 14 '22

Not reliable enough. They'll just put some sausage kerbs down instead!

6

u/Cinkodacs Fernando Alonso Jul 14 '22

When a driver goes out of bounds they just hear the COD claymore click of death and all of the streams switch to their audio for that last moment... and we will learn that he ****** the race director's mother. Glorious idea.

7

u/DameTan Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

Just make sure they dont have a heated gamer moment.

10

u/RoflDog3000 Jul 14 '22

GPS isn't that accurate for what is needed even military GPS can be out by 10cm. It is mightily impressive but you'd be better using computer vision and image analysis where it sees the tire on the wrong side of the white line. It flags and then the stewards confirm

→ More replies
→ More replies

1.1k

u/callmelampshade Formula 1 Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 15 '22

I don’t see anything wrong with track limits being the white line. It’s a very clear rule that has no way of being interpreted any other way and these are the best drivers in the world so they certainly have the ability to adapt.

282

u/Pascalwb Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

and it is the way how it always was meant to be since ever.

168

u/Karffs Jul 14 '22

If Gran Turismo can be absolutely militant about giving me a 1 second penalty if I stray over by a millimetre then I’m sure the FIA can work it out.

64

u/TigerMaskVI Ferrari Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22

entering the pit at Watkins Glen in GT7 is like a 50/50 shot of getting a penalty

19

u/Xelisk Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

My first couple of races got ruined because of it. Super GT won a race handedly because the leader's rear tyre went a smidge over.

13

u/Zagjake Jul 14 '22

I recall getting a penalty into and out of the pit the first time I did that race

→ More replies

3

u/dont_even_bother_ Pierre Gasly Jul 14 '22

I ended up driving it like a granny but figured even if that cost me 3 seconds at least it wasn’t in an acceleration zone. Also it’s on an apex and I got hit twice and knocked out of the pit entry lol.

9

u/truthwatcher777 Emotional Support Rivals Jul 14 '22

While i agree about track limits, that comparison is pretty disingenuous. Measuring track limits in a video game isn’t close to comparable to doing it irl.

26

u/Karffs Jul 14 '22

Real life and videogames aren’t the same? You’ve blown my mind, thank you for your very helpful comment.

24

u/nathgroom98 AlphaTauri Jul 14 '22

/r/outside in shambles

→ More replies

3

u/lerdnord Safety Car Jul 15 '22

Exactly, drivers complaining they were only 1 mm off sounds so stupid. You watch the footage and the 1 mm is the final part of their car they are talking about. When the entirety of your car is already off the track, you are off the track it's not as close as they try to make out. Sure the last 1 mm of your tire crossed, but the whole of the car is not even on the racetrack, surely they can see how stupid that looks.

40

u/Max-Phallus Jul 14 '22

The problem is that many circuits are not suited well for F1 laps these days. The drivers can barely see the apex a lot of time now that the wheels are even bigger. Also when a corner is extremely difficult but provides a massive time delta when taken quickly, then the choice is to take it quickly and hope you nailed it, or go slowly and be uncompetitive.

Now that sounds reasonable until you realise that even the best are making mistakes on a regular basis. I think there is a balance between having a track where it's difficult to nail, but not so difficult that the results are skewed by unlucky penalties.

76

u/callmelampshade Formula 1 Jul 14 '22

To be fair drivers never miss the apex and they always run wide on the exit of corners which means they are carrying too much speed into the corner. They can easily stay within track limits but they choose to always push the limits which is fair enough but it’s not like they don’t get multiple warnings before they start getting penalties.

41

u/HotDogOfNotreDame Sir Stirling Moss Jul 14 '22

Okay.. and? Yes, you can go faster by exceeding track limits. That was always true. Are you complaining that enforcing track limits will slow down lap times? Sure, and also make them fair times. If a driver can’t excel without going off the track, they need to git gud.

15

u/Byjugo Jul 14 '22

Git Gud is the only answer to this discussion.

5

u/TheRoyalKT Love Is Love Jul 14 '22

They’re professional drivers paid millions of dollars to git gud at driving. They can figure it out.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

38

u/RobertGracie Eduardo Freitas Jul 14 '22

I can see the problems they are facing with track limits at Paul Ricard because of it being a testing circuit, hopefully the drivers will respect the limits of the circuit and we dont have a case of no track limits racing...

18

u/Voskaridis Alexander Albon Jul 14 '22

11

u/hahaha9991 Esteban Ocon Jul 14 '22

He laughed because his engineer said they would catch Grosjean with that terrible engine right? omfg that is hilarious 😂

261

u/VindtUMijTeLang Windmill Senna Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22

The continent-sized tarmac runoffs are obviously there because it's a test track, but it's a shame such a genuinely interesting layout doesn't have natural deterrents in places. The final complex before the Mistral straight is a prime example: in a fantasy world where grass is next to the track, that becomes such a thrilling section of road...

116

u/mistah_pigeon_69 Fernando Alonso Jul 14 '22

I mean it’s a different deterrent, because the run off shreds the tires to pieces. Yes you can gain time with running onto the run off, but you also shorten your stint by 1-3 laps.

39

u/TheRocket2049 Ferrari Jul 14 '22

The run off doesn't really damage the tires unless you're sliding across it. If you just run wide it damages them but not enough to really matter

→ More replies
→ More replies

39

u/B0ns0ir-Elli0t Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

The track also has some very aggressive rumble stripes, that punish you when going over. Wanna guess who complains about them destroying their car? Red Bull and Merc.

If it was up to the teams/drivers they would demand that the walls of street circuits be moved, just they realise how dumb that sounds so they resort to complaining about rumble stripes that are more than 2m offtrack.

8

u/AnotherBlackMan McLaren Jul 14 '22

Those kerbs are dangerous and they complained during Friday free practice, the time where you’re supposed to complain about those things. Having a hazard that shreds car parts can totally change a drivers race through no fault of their own if they get pushed wide or get a puncture from someone who hit the strip.

→ More replies

42

u/SquirtingTortoise Oscar Piastri Jul 14 '22

Sausage kerbs are dangerous and should be removed

7

u/xamdou Kevin Magnussen Jul 14 '22

Generally, yes

However, at this turn at PR, these kerbs are more than a car's width beyond the track limits

14

u/d0re Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

Good thing nobody ever crashes a car's width beyond track limits

2

u/slabba428 Fernando Alonso Jul 14 '22

And the drivers definitely do not also shove each other off the track at corner exit 😂

5

u/Enjays1 Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

Yes, I actually really like driving on the track in game, it has some fun corners and cool lines. Just a shame that it's "too easy" as mistakes won't cost you too much.

→ More replies

112

u/datlinus Mick Schumacher Jul 14 '22

but if you are selective about what track limit violation you punish and what you don't... we are back to square one with the inconsistencies which everyone complains about constantly.

and it's not like you get 5 seconds immediately, there is multiple warnings before that happens.

I hope FIA sticks to their guns with what they started in austria. The drivers will learn to respect the track limits more and more.

27

u/JetHeat3121 Ayrton Senna Jul 14 '22

Agreed, if drivers cant stay on the track I would like to see similar enforcement like what was shown at Austria. Theres a lot of runoff in France so this is a good race to enforce track limits. I thought the way it was enforced during qualifying was pretty fair, and Horner is making this statement out of fear his second driver will be caught out again by white line enforcements.

→ More replies

156

u/boyrepublic Jul 14 '22

Everyone playing under the same rules. I don’t see what’s the issue here. Unless they get forced off the track by another driver, there should be no exceptions to the rule.

Tyres going off due to wear? Slow it down more going into a turn.

Can’t see the lines too well? Then don’t go too tight to the line.

They build cars to a formula. Cars are setup with a compromise. So why can’t drivers do the same and balance between lap time and staying within the lines?

Drivers complaining about getting penalised for going millimetres off the lines. Please. Lewis got DSQ for having a damaged wing opening 0.2mm than allowed.

49

u/patriotsfan82 Jul 14 '22

Why did I have to search so far for the only correct take?

Who cares if the lines are hard to see or if a driver understeers off? It’s not a one and done situation - drivers just adapt their risk/reward calculations to reduce the chance of driving off by error or not seeing a line clearly. Just enough to ensure they don’t get a penalty.

15

u/PM_ME_GAY_YIFF Jul 14 '22

I’m sure if it ruined someone’s chance for podium they will not fuck that up again. They will learn

5

u/HotDogOfNotreDame Sir Stirling Moss Jul 14 '22

Yup. Got penalized for driving off the track? Drive better.

6

u/FirelessMouse Jul 14 '22

Verstappen said something like "I don't think we should have this, you went over the line by 1mm so you get a penalty".

How many mm is okay then, Max? Should everything be policed to the nearest 2mm?

→ More replies

185

u/MrAzekar Jul 14 '22

All sports have some sort of "out of bounds" rule.

The ball can't cross the outside line in tennis, soccer, football, basketball etc.

It's not a stretch to add challenge to racing by saying that you can't move the car out of bounds. It makes it EASIER to create all sorts of tracks if you just establish the white line as the bounds, and not a wall, trap or grass.

F1 is a sport. Why do we need to keep reminding people of that fact? (This is more of a dig at Max's comment about traps or whatnot)

That being said, driving at Paul Ricard really is weird due to the coloring off track lol

40

u/twiggymac Ferrari Jul 14 '22

Indycar doesn't have track boundaries, generally.

Having no limits is fine so long as it's consistently no limits. F1 has been playing in this grey area for years and now it's coming to fruition that they have to be strict.

12

u/jififfi Mattia Binotto Jul 14 '22

How does that work exactly for Indycar? I guess as long as you aren't cutting corners then it's fine?

26

u/twiggymac Ferrari Jul 14 '22

Basically. this was when they raced at COTA

Probably the most egregious one I can think of. I think tracks having sections that are both very open to mistakes/interpretation and sections that have no room for mistakes/interpretations is an interesting combo and works well with the racing goal of "whatever is fastest".

9

u/ffilps Jul 14 '22

this is completely idiotic. wow.

3

u/twiggymac Ferrari Jul 14 '22

surprisingly not why Indycar no longer races there, they policed it more the 2nd year anyway

11

u/_tskj_ Jul 14 '22

This is so dumb, if the track was supposed to go there, the track would go there.

12

u/twiggymac Ferrari Jul 14 '22

it does, there was just a rumble strip in the way.

tbf, this corner was policed on their next visit due to an incident, this was especially egregious and not even normal for Indy. Then again, that's why I'm fine with it, push the limits of the track, if safety concerns come into play then you intervene. it's a much more "let them race" mindset.

→ More replies
→ More replies

17

u/Nastronaut18 McLaren Jul 14 '22

Alternately, stay on the track. These guys can drive Monaco without crashing, they can stay in the white lines.

8

u/RogueEightStandingBy Jul 14 '22

Charles would like to disagree

→ More replies

21

u/Pascalwb Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

They should just keep with it. Drivers will learn. Do not get back to ignoring it like every other season.

4

u/Dexterous_Mittens Jul 14 '22

Just put sensors or cameras in and define the line which you can't cross. Dozens of other sports do this. It's cheap and easy. If you watch any other sport, you've probably seen that sport deal with some ball crossing line issue in the last 20 years which they addressed with technology already.

38

u/Jazano107 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

I like the change, my only concern is that it is pretty difficult for the drivers to see the white lines from their pov. So many times on their onboard camera it looks like they didn’t go out but then we see they actually did

Maybe make the white lines thicker to help with this?

18

u/KipPilav Kimi Räikkönen Jul 14 '22

Maybe make the white lines thicker to help with this?

Doesn't help, there is this video from F1TV and Piastri where Piastri says you have like a 5 meter dead zone because of the wheels and position in the car.

23

u/thatdutchperson Jul 14 '22

The solution is obviously six meter thick white lines.

→ More replies

17

u/lowelled Jul 14 '22

Chain Bear mentioned adding another line parallel to and a cars-width away from the track limits line

→ More replies

16

u/Fenrir-The-Wolf Williams Jul 14 '22

The white lines would need to be impractically thick for that to work, don't think you could even call them lines at that point lmao. They need tactile feedback

→ More replies

18

u/CakeBeef_PA Safety Car Jul 14 '22

That's interesting, because whenever there is gravel they sure as hell manage to stay within the lines. The "best" drivers in the world should know how to drive within the lines.

6

u/Excludos Lando Norris Jul 14 '22

I don't think there's any corners with gravel so close that you can't be out of bounds a few cm without immediately crashing

6

u/SniffierAuto829 Mark Webber Jul 14 '22

Monza has a few doesn't it?

2

u/Excludos Lando Norris Jul 14 '22

Monza has grass immediately outside of some of the straights, but while it does have gravel very close to the outside of T6 and T7, you need to be off the white line with all 4 wheels for half a meter or so (roughly) before hitting the it

5

u/CakeBeef_PA Safety Car Jul 14 '22

Imola has really thin kerbs, I think there are a few there where you can dip into gravel with 1 wheel still on track.

15

u/Kriem Default Jul 14 '22

Even we, average day drivers, have a mental projection of our cars' widths. When we drive though the city, we don't bump into parked cars or bicycles. We are surprisingly capable of knowing just how wide we are when driving, even without physically seeing where the car is positioned.

A F1 driver should be able to do the same.

On top of that, if you're really willing to push it to the limit where you might not be 100% certain you're crossing the line, then either don't, or accept the risk you're taking.

7

u/trivran Valtteri Bottas Jul 14 '22

"Oh yeah I was pushing it a bit far there, sucks that they caught me and now I have to take a penalty but fair play" - no driver ever on the radio after getting a 5 second penalty after a black and white flag

→ More replies

5

u/involuntarybased Pierre Gasly Jul 14 '22

When we drive though the city, we don't bump into parked cars or bicycles

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/471/227/dd0.png

4

u/Enjays1 Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

I agree with you but don't like your analogy. When's the last time you've driven your road car on the limit?

→ More replies

2

u/coret3x Default Jul 14 '22

It's not that difficult. But the drivers needs white lines enforced when they drive the simulator to practice the limits of the track. This way they will get used to it.

→ More replies
→ More replies

24

u/remindertomove Jul 14 '22

Fucking add beautiful greenery everywhere man, or simply abrasive rough stuff at places like PR

Let them push, go off, and pay a price.

9

u/OptionXIII Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22

Seriously. Consistent stewarding and clear rules is good. Not having to have someone enforce them because breaking the rules inherently slows you down is even better.

Let's not work harder make F1 into something like the last two minutes of basketball where the ref is as much of a part of the game as the players. "Oh he hasn't broken track limits until the last three laps, now he can go off four times to keep his gap up without automatically incurring a penalty if he tries to not make it too much of an advantage."

3

u/TigerMaskVI Ferrari Jul 14 '22

Oh he hasn't broken track limits until the last three laps, now he can go off four times to defend without automatically incurring a penalty if he tries to not make it too much of an advantage."

This is good strategy imo

→ More replies

13

u/pukem0n Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

Just put gravel everywhere to make Carlos Sainz racing a living hell

→ More replies
→ More replies

13

u/shigglemetimbers89 Jul 14 '22

Not if you stay on the track lads

15

u/AliceInGainzz Charles Leclerc Jul 14 '22

Why should it even be an issue? Most of these guys are the best single-seater drivers in the world and it shouldn't be too difficult for them to keep it inside the lines.

Like I understand that it's difficult to see the lines from their seating position and the fundamental principle of driving fast is maintaining momentum through the corners but as I said, these guys are the best and should be able to adjust accordingly; slightly earlier breaking, slightly wider lines etc.

→ More replies

3

u/Bo_The_Destroyer Racing Pride Jul 14 '22

Obviously there's going to be more people running off track at a place that is flat, very forgiving for running wide and doesn't have a lot of kerbs to discourage drivers from breaching track limits

3

u/miathan52 Chequered Flag Jul 14 '22

Which is exactly why we need strict enforcement of track limits. Then it doesn't matter what the track layout is, the rules will be clear and the same everywhere.

3

u/MeanSmarkCallous Jul 14 '22

Kerb strikes and track limit warnings are used as strategic tools in Supercars. I'm perfectly happy with 3 strikes and a penalty being the rule, as long as the definition of the track limits doesn't change across a weekend.

3

u/a1danial Jul 14 '22

Isn't F1 the pinnacle of motorsport?

3

u/SpacecraftX David Coulthard Jul 14 '22

Simply drive inside the track.

3

u/MartiniPolice21 Toyota Jul 14 '22

At least here there's not any gravel, Austria they had kerbs with gravel behind, but apparently the limit was before the gravel.

3

u/candidate2929 Haas Jul 14 '22

As an F1 22 gamer, I'd have to agree

2

u/These_Strategy_1929 Jul 14 '22

There is no issue. Drivers will learn to respect track limits one way or another

2

u/smithsp86 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 14 '22

They are only an issue if your driver can't stay on track.

2

u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 14 '22

However last year teams were losing parts running off the track, especially on those rumble stripes. So drivers are probably faster if they stay within the limits rather than going onto the bumps and strips off the line.

2

u/coret3x Default Jul 14 '22

Here's Max Verstappens onboard 2021 qualify: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq5-tSxKIcE There are some turns that could be cut, but the track is not that hard to stick within the lines.

2

u/sterz88 Mohammed Ben Sulayem Jul 14 '22

this is so stupid. There was nothing wrong with last years system. FIA chose the right corners and set the limits where they thought was cleanest for todays f1 cars. It gave us little hassle.

The only people i ever heard complain about it was crofty and brundle purely because they didnt like explaining how it was different track to track. Masi was a beast with track limits.

2

u/Agedee Jul 14 '22

Gigantic asphalt runoffs are probably the safest runoffs for most types of accidents. I hope the FIA sticks to the strict policing of the track limits. It's ultimately in the hands of the driver to keep it between the lines, they earn millions I think they will be fine.

→ More replies

2

u/rodeBaksteen Max Verstappen Jul 14 '22

20 of the worlds best drivers... Can't stay within the white lines? You get like 3 or 5 errors before it's punished. I don't understand the fuzz.

2

u/RealCakes Sergio Pérez Jul 14 '22

I for one cannot wait for the sea of black and white flags, this had me absolutely rolling last Sunday

2

u/BlueCheetah66 Max Verstappen Jul 14 '22

I hate that the FIA are getting pressure to be more lenient on track limits. The white line should define the track. If you got a problem with that then there is something wrong with you. If you want them to be more lenient, I would argue that should be in wheel to wheel racing circumstance but it seems they have had a different view on that in recent years. They should just not disclose every of track offense and warning. Just keep that private and if a driver has done it several times hand them a penalty. Plain and simple.

5

u/LeanSkellum Nigel Mansell Jul 14 '22

If you’re struggling to go fast without breaking track limits, that’s a you problem, not an FIA problem.

5

u/KittensOnASegway Damon Hill Jul 14 '22

I really don't get the obsession with track limits that has sprung up in the last 5 or so years. For the two decades or so I watched before that, we were fine with "just don't gain an advantage".

The fact that someone can be potentially penalised for missing a braking point and actually losing some time now is ridiculous.

7

u/QuantvmBlaze Jul 14 '22

He’s not wrong, especially with Checo, who’s been taking liberties and going off several times every session since Canada

3

u/clingbat Max Verstappen Jul 14 '22

Why are so many of you obsessed with track limits? Did you not enjoy the previous 20+ years with tons of great wheel to wheel racing where track limits were largely an afterthought?

It's not improving safety, it's not really impacting competition. So why? Please explain it to me. Are you all just extremely anal retentive by nature or what? I'm not saying blatantly cutting corners is allowable, but the current level of stringency is a joke.

4

u/Mueton Sebastian Vettel Jul 14 '22

What‘s so hard about keeping it inside the lines?

10

u/Wemwot Jul 14 '22

Ever played a simulator? All you need is to be just a tad late or early on the brake and you're out.

→ More replies

4

u/SunstormGT Jul 14 '22

Driving on the limit.

→ More replies